Author Topic: General talks (Read 8390 times)

What is that app you've been developing? Is it for organizing spheres or drawing them, possible both? VUE is OK, but it has it's flaws. DH said that ancient Chinese and Egiptians did mapping as well! How did they draw them, by carvesting on the stones, lol? Those were simple times and they used simple solutions. In our days all is complex and have huge variations, so no software will be perfect .
After all, It's all about Intent and the practice

Since I'm more of a descriptive type of person, the app will be for describing and organizing spheres. It's called ''Dream eXplorer''. (Who would have guessed, huh...?

) It will allow you to enter perception bubbles (by name and description). Then you will be able to group them in reports and 'filter' dreams that took place on a specific location so you'll be able to get a (detailed) description of a single sphere of perception. At least that's the idea. For now...

I made zones like the City, the Sea zone, the Village (for some reason i keep dreaming the village of my parents), the Unknown zone, some particular zones within the city have their own zones, because they are quite dominant as subject of my dreams, I also have School zone, Industrial zone and Foreign country zone . "Fixed in appearance" I call places which barely change - they maintain it's visual image or are with small changes. I have couple of these and they keep repeating! Usually are connected with my early childhood time and look like that! Funny thing is when I see those places in dreams they always look like when first seen them in T1. For instance, on the East there is a street which was "half done" (asphalt was reaching only half of it) in my childhood days and in my dreams it feels like an end of the City. Bus last station is there, no buildings after that line, and it's clearly an entry into another sphere. I don't recall ever cross that barrier, a couple of times I walked for a while, but the dream changes into another bubble - classical City places. So, it looks that physical barrier from T1 continues to be so in T2 and some extra energy or hacking is needed in order to cross that!

So, basically you have each zone drawn as a separate map? That sounds like a great idea, considering the complexity of some parts of Second Attention.

You say that some perception bubbles look like they did when you first saw them (i.e. childhood memories). Is the dream-story also childhood memory-related? Have you ever crossed the barrier between two spheres?

That might be good idea, I haven't thought of it at all . I may try it from now on to place them separately on various folders with the same name as zones and see what happens, thanx!

If you use the images to trigger dream memories, this method would be as good as any other.

It is very rare that I'm able to go beyond that sea zone! But if I do, it is very cold to the extreme! I've been on the mountains a couple of times, and there was cold, too, but never across them. Nor I was able to have any perspective how "beyond" looks like . I've read DH reports about mountains and there could be something in it. Will see

I have some 'cold spots' as well, but by instinct I would say that those mountains are on the South (top) side of the map, not on the North. $:-\$ Some things are not yet clear to me regarding if anythings is actually beyond the sea zone or the sea is the 'final frontier'. If you imagine 'a movie' playing in front of you, I was going from W to E, walking on a mountain top or some kind of a cliff towards a building with sloped floor (the floor of the building was like this: '\' ). (By the way - I think it's one of the places Ravenna mentioned to find luminosity at). Anyway, on my left there was a deep drop and forest to the left (W) as far as I could see. I reached the building before I could see what was to the right (E). It might be that the sea zone is further to the East...

These bubbles are very abstract or cannot be associated with anything known. In my research, I have discovered (and confirmed that idea from another author) that we (our perception) is consisted of the two parts: the Observer and the Interpretor. Observer observes - it does not interpret nor tries to answer what's going on - it is an abstract view of the reality on a way of energy, as CC put it. The Interpretor (mind) interprets what Observer sees. It is doing so by taking out the first available idea which is stored in our memory data and compares it with an abstraction. If any similarity found it will interpret what is seen as it! So the idea is not to let the Observer to run the show - because it will be too abstract and we will forget or disregard as rubbish. And not to let the Interpretor to run it either - if we do the dream becomes mumbo-jumbo from T1 and that is why people usually see dreams as necessity to interpret as "what does it mean" thing. "I dreamt a flying cow in a spacesuit - what does it mean?" .

This Observer-Interpretor idea sounds interesting. Do you think it still holds when you bring Nagual Dreaming into consideration? I mean, Nagual Dreams are supposed to happen on left-side memory so when you try to describe or 'interpret' them, they appear as mambo-jumbo themselves. If you can remember them, that is...

That is why DH emphasize the importance of a locations in dreams, rather then content, and I agree!

I've never considered using high or low levels for Unknown spheres. Will see how that idea could fit into the system, thanx

I've been to some places myself that couldn't be placed ''on'' the map (unless placed ''below''). They usually look like caves or underground tunnels and can lead to some interesting places (i.e. the dwarf canyon, the labyrinths of the inorganic beings etc.).

As you probably know, there are a lot of popular ideas about foreign installation nowadays, like reptilians, Illuminati etc, and they run the show. It most likely mean they are in fear of being discovered and rather - they chase people who are close to finding out the truth and hunt them down - this seems more logical to me! Because, they are allready in presidents minds and telling them what to do - just check out how the world looks like these days, lol . Do you remember the Smoker guy in "X files" TV show? And those mysterious men he used to meet in a dark room in order to set the rules for the world? So, it could easily be they are not interested in possibilities and power because - they have it already! But to prevent their discovery is a main goal with these prosecutions and killings and they use fear as a weapon. I wouldn't be surprised if they are the ones who block our dreaming to expand, because it is silly - we as natural dreamers and beings of perceptions have so much difficulties to cross small energetic barriers!
CC explained it very well with the fear of flyer mind of not being discovered and that fear is transfered to us. That is why it is of a big importance, IMO, to practice warriors way in order to simply survive the lust for power and just to keep going towards the Total Freedom as a final goal of everything.

Sure I remember the Smoker from "X-Files".

I think that it was a great 'interpretation' of the 'forces behind the scene'. I agree that they do have power already, but IMO, prosecutions and killings happen because they are trying to keep that power (for themselves and at any cost). It's an interesting thought that they might be responsible for blocking our 'abilities' (if you think about it from another angle, that's actually exactly what's happening - they spray us with chem trails, they poison our food and water and they're trying to sell us their genetically engineered food; and most of all, they keep us in fear by manipulating our lives and thoughts through media).

If you look at it this way it's no wonder that it's so difficult to clear ones' perception enough to change the way we think, not to mention to cross the energetic barriers. Luckily for us, there's always a way...

Silhouette · « **Reply #2 on:** 31 May 2013, 18:31:32 »

Since I'm more of a descriptive type of person, the app will be for describing and organizing spheres. It's called ''Dream eXplorer''. (Who would have guessed, huh...?

) It will allow you to enter perception bubbles (by name and description). Then you will be able to group them in reports and 'filter' dreams that took place on a specific location so you'll be able to get a (detailed) description of a single sphere of perception. At least that's the idea. For now...

Well, if one could add a photo in it or any jpg type of file, than you have it all

So, basically you have each zone drawn as a separate map? That sounds like a great idea, considering the complexity of some parts of Second Attention.

You say that some perception bubbles look like they did when you first saw them (i.e. childhood memories). Is the dream-story also childhood memory-related? Have you ever crossed the barrier between two spheres?

Yes, I have several maps, each representing one zone. In my first map, there was only one and everything was in it, so it became very complex and huge in size! Adding new spheres became difficult and slow process, as computer would "cook" a long time

. But, it had an advantage in perspective, one could have good feeling of locations when everything is in one place! You notice dominant landscapes (like sea, green nature or rivers, lakes, etc) and how spheres group around them. You can also have a better idea on world sides (N, S, E, W) and sometimes better feeling on where should those "unknown" spheres be placed.
On locations which appear as in childhood, it's usual the sense and "visual" part that is from that time, but the content varies, sometimes from recent events, sometimes from childhood, but it can be mixed, as well. For instance, when I dream the Childhood house (the Center of the map which consists all other houses and apartments I used to live in, as well), I will see inhabitants and neighbours from that time, but also from nowadays, too. Interesting part is, when today in T1 I walk around that place, memory flashbacks are the strongest! They strike like a lightninig and can be powerful in feeling. The place is changed now, but flashbacks are about the "original" look

.

I have never crossed from one bubble to another in full awareness. Nor, I was able to reach the end of the bubble as DH describe it. Although, I did have an memory of total darkness before another bubble appeared, like traveling through the tunnel or something. This happened only few times, two or three since I practice mapping.

Also, couple of times I run into what DH describes "unfinished dream", pixels in a view. Like you walk in a dream, and suddenly all of the landscape in front of you appear in large pixels, blur and totally unclear what is it. The image would not correct itself, rather, I would enter into a new bubble.

I have some 'cold spots' as well, but by instinct I would say that those mountains are on the South (top) side of the map, not on the North. $:-\$ Some things are not yet clear to me regarding if anythings is actually beyond the sea zone or the sea is the 'final frontier'. If you imagine 'a movie' playing in front of you, I was going from W to E, walking on a mountain top or some kind of a cliff towards a building with sloped floor (the floor of the building was like this: '\' ). (By the way - I think it's one of the places Ravenna mentioned to find luminosity at). Anyway, on my left there was a deep drop and forest to the left (W) as far as I could see. I reached the building before I could see what was to the right (E). It might be that the sea zone is further to the East...

To my feeling these mountings are/were definitely on the top of the map! I know that if I go down, I'd go toward the sea or the City, or the warmer climate if there was coldness. But, I was unable to go further up, across the mountain, nor I had desires to. Interesting thing is there were no buildings over there, usualy small cabins or similar.

This Observer-Interpretor idea sounds interesting. Do you think it still holds when you bring Nagual Dreaming into consideration? I mean, Nagual Dreams are supposed to happen on left-side memory so when you try to describe or 'interpret' them, they appear as mambo-jumbo themselves. If you can remember them, that is...

I believe it does not. Because, Nagul dreams can only be dreamt with the double, the energy body and observed in a way of energy. Maybe, the Observer could do the Seeing, but there is no Interpretor. As soon as one appears, it becomes an ordinary dream. The energy body, IMO does not need to interpret Nagual, it just Sees it as energy and corresponds with it in such a way.

I've been to some places myself that couldn't be placed ''on'' the map (unless placed ''below''). They usually look like caves or underground tunnels and can lead to some interesting places (i.e. the dwarf canyon, the labyrinths of the inorganic beings etc.).

Do you have deserts, unknown natural surroundings? I have them a lot and feeling about them does not fit anywhere which could be familiar, so I place them to the "Unknown zone"

Sure I remember the Smoker from "X-Files".

I think that it was a great 'interpretation' of the 'forces behind the scene'. I agree that they do have power already, but IMO, prosecutions and killings happen because they are trying to keep that power (for themselves and at any cost). It's an interesting thought that they might be responsible for blocking our 'abilities' (if you think about it from another angle, that's actually exactly what's happening - they spray us with chem trails, they poison our food and water and they're trying to sell us their genetically engineered food; and most of all, they keep us in fear by manipulating our lives and thoughts through media).

If you look at it this way it's no wonder that it's so difficult to clear ones' perception enough to change the way we think, not to mention to cross the energetic barriers. Luckily for us, there's always a way...

I think the best way of dealing with them is not to consider them as enemies or the "them", that is to loose the idea of being in war with these forces. Instead, we use Love as the guide and that power lies within us. Also, when one connects with his inner core, the Self-Love, the perspective of the universe changes, so as one's vibration. So I believe, if we change our vibration, or the frenquency of our existence away from fear and fight, we migh have a chance to cross these barriers more naturally and safely. In my experience, Self-Love is the way of new sorcerers don Juan talked about and who have nothing in their mind but Total Freedom. We could work on ourselves in daily lives on this Love force by stalking practices and by cleaing programs which are installed in us and learn the way of Love, which means to learn to follow this kind of energy in dreaming as well

.

If one cleans his desires and lust for power, does not stop at any sign which says: "Power here, lets trade" and keeps moving forward, there might be some good chances to get free of those fellas from above

Saso · « **Reply #3 on:** 01 June 2013, 15:44:33 »

Well, if one could add a photo in it or any jpg type of file, than you have it all

That's actually a great idea. I'll see if it can be done in the first release, otherwise I'll keep it in mind for the upgrade.

Yes, I have several maps, each representing one zone. In my first map, there was only one and everything was in it, so it became very complex and huge in size! Adding new spheres became difficult and slow process, as computer would "cook" a long time . But, it had an advantage in perspective, one could have good feeling of locations when everything is in one place! You notice dominant landscapes (like sea, green nature or rivers, lakes, etc) and how spheres group around them. You can also have a better idea on world sides (N, S, E, W) and sometimes better feeling on where should those "unknown" spheres be placed.

I think that this "basic" map can actually serve as a general overview of the dream world - as you said, to get the impression of the orientation and the landscapes. Like if you get a map of your country, for example; you can get the general impression on where the mountains are, where's the sea, where a specific city is located etc. But as soon as you want to get the details (i.e. for a specific city), you need another, more detailed map of a smaller area (that specific city, to be concrete). In that manner, things are quite similar, regardless if you are mapping the real world or the dream world.

... Interesting part is, when today in T1 I walk around that place, memory flashbacks are the strongest! They strike like a lightninig and can be powerful in feeling. The place is changed now, but flashbacks are about the "original" look .

It sounds to me that you have some 'reality-merging' going on here...

I have never crossed from one bubble to another in full awareness. Nor, I was able to reach the end of the bubble as DH describe it. Although, I did have an memory of total darkness before another bubble appeared, like traveling through the tunnel or something. This happened only few times, two or three since I practice mapping.

Also, couple of times I run into what DH describes "unfinished dream", pixels in a view. Like you walk in a dream, and suddenly all of the landscape in front of you appear in large pixels, blur and totally unclear what is it. The image would not correct itself, rather, I would enter into a new bubble.

I don't recall that kind of experience. Though, I do remember a couple of cartoon-like dreams, but come to think about it, their plot was way too complex to be an 'unfinished dream'... $:-\$

To my feeling these mountings are/were definitely on the top of the map! I know that if I go down, I'd go toward the sea or the City, or the warmer climate if there was coldness. But, I was unable to go further up, across the mountain, nor I had desires to. Interesting thing is there were no buildings over there, usualy small cabins or similar.

There are mountains on top of my map, too. That's what makes it so confusing. I mean the fact that in that dream, I was absolutely sure that where I was, was the Northern border of the Second Attention. I even titled the dream like that.

If I go 'down', the landscape varies according to where I am. If I'm on the East side, I pass the beach on the way to mountains on the South side. I think they are in the SE corner of the map, running towards the center (S). Next, there is the ocean running towards the West part. If, on the other hand, I start from NW, then I pass some hills until I reach the jungle. I think on the other side of the jungle there could be the ocean. So, yes, it gets warmer down South.

I believe it does not. Because, Nagul dreams can only be dreamt with the double, the energy body and observed in a way of energy. Maybe, the Observer could do the Seeing, but there is no Interpretor. As soon as one appears, it becomes an ordinary dream. The energy body, IMO does not need to interpret Nagual, it just Sees it as energy and corresponds with it in such a way.

This is a logical point of view. I was reading some articles from Bruce A. Moen yesterday and I found the one describing the Observer and the Interpreter (the "Components of Consciousness" section, in case anyone else is interested). I find it really interesting how things are connected, even though they use a completely different interpretation model (different description).

Do you have deserts, unknown natural surroundings? I have them a lot and feeling about them does not fit anywhere which could be familiar, so I place them to the "Unknown zone"

I do have a desert.

On my map, it's in NE corner, below the mountains (on the North side) and above the beach (on the East side). So I guess it doesn't fit into the 'Unknown'.

There are some other places, though. The Pyramid, for example, some smaller villages etc. Those (the villages) could either be placed to the hills on the West side, to or near the jungle (NW corner) or to the NE corner (just before the NE mountains). I really should draw some kind of sketch...

I think the best way of dealing with them is not to consider them as enemies or the "them", that is to loose the idea of being in war with these forces. Instead, we use Love as the guide and that power lies within us. Also, when one connects with his inner core, the Self-Love, the perspective of the universe changes, so as one's vibration. So I believe, if we change our vibration, or the frenquency of our existence away from fear and fight, we migh have a chance to cross these barriers more naturally and safely. In my experience, Self-Love is the way of new sorcerers don Juan talked about and who have nothing in their mind but Total Freedom. We could work on ourselves in daily lives on this Love force by stalking practices and by cleaing programs which are installed in us and learn the way of Love, which means to learn to follow this kind of energy in dreaming as well .

If one cleans his desires and lust for power, does not stop at any sign which says: "Power here, lets trade" and keeps moving forward, there might be some good chances to get free of those fellas from above

Well said!

I find it very interesting that this is actually "the core" of every religion, new age movement etc. as well. It's just that the message is usually so camouflaged (and/or misinterpreted) that it's easily missed. There is just one thing - I'm not sure that I'm there yet...

I mean, it's easy to accept this when nothing is at stake. But once your life or the lives of your loved ones are in question, I don't think I would accept "When slapped on the face, turn the other cheek" philosophy...

By the way (this just popped into my head

) - how do you differentiate between LD, (O)OBE and AP?

Silhouette · « **Reply #4 on:** 04 June 2013, 14:19:40 »

Hi

... Interesting part is, when today in T1 I walk around that place, memory flashbacks are the strongest! They strike like a lightninig and can be powerful in feeling. The place is changed now, but flashbacks are about the "original" look

.

It sounds to me that you have some 'reality-merging' going on here...

That's quite possible

.
Have you ever had so called "events merging"? Like, you dream an event and it continues in daily world and vice versa? I've had these a couple of times, usually, in a dream a meeting would be announced and it would happened in T1

. It is called various names (precognition etc) but DH were onto something when they said these chains of events do cross between T1 and T2 and according to them, it's quite possible to start something in a daily world and finish it in dreaming. Sergey described his dreaming about some hidden treasure and location was known to him. But in a daily world there was some concrete building or street, I cannot remember need to check this story out, but he started to do a research about the location. It appeared in there used to be some event in the distant past which involved treasure and there was great possibility one was dug in there

.
This also could be due to a reality-merging when events "walk" from one to another

I do have a desert.

On my map, it's in NE corner, below the mountains (on the North side) and above the beach (on the East side). So I guess it doesn't fit into the 'Unknown'.

There are some other places, though. The Pyramid, for example, some smaller villages etc. Those (the villages) could either be placed to the hills on the West side, to or near the jungle (NW corner) or to the NE corner (just before the NE mountains). I really should draw some kind of sketch...

How do you determine where the desert is located? For me there was no way to locate them! I could go by the reason and use the sun as the orienting point, but it didn't make sense, no energy feeling. Desert dreams appear as a continuation of one bubble, they appear as completely new thing

. They seem like totally magical places, very diferent from usual bubbIes, like the Interperetor could not find anything to compare it to, so it constructed a desert

. I was unable to use any feeling or intuition regarding their location. But, what I notice, they do have some power different in feeling than other bubbles!

Also, once I have seen that famous fog-wall - a very dark fog which streched from the ground to the infinity above. This I could locate easily on the North, by the sea. It was frightening thing to see

. I haven't tried to cross it, it was too scary sight to even approach any closer

Well said!

I find it very interesting that this is actually "the core" of every religion, new age movement etc. as well. It's just that the message is usually so camouflaged (and/or misinterpreted) that it's easily missed. There is just one thing - I'm not sure that I'm there yet...

I mean, it's easy to accept this when nothing is at stake. But once your life or the lives of your loved ones are in question, I don't think I would accept "When slapped on the face, turn the other cheek" philosophy...

There is always something at stake. But, IMO we have no choice, really, I see that now clearly, but to use the path of love (don Juan used "the path with the heart" term and he talked about unconditional love). After all, it is usually love that is in stake and what we are defending - we easily use aggression to defend it. I used to be a lot into so called "warrior's couldn't care less" mood, for years and it brought to me only troubles

. Learning unconditional love that don Juan taught about seems like a way which will not put us into the position where we need to defend anything, because new chain of events will be started and returned to us accordingly! Stalking on our life in such a way could bring awareness of our nature as pure love. Taking full responsibility is IMO the only cheek to turn, the above quote is actualy defeating dogma for human beings set by a predator

By the way (this just popped into my head

) - how do you differentiate between LD, (O)OBE and AP?

To be honest, I haven't tried so hard to differentiate those

. Robert Bruce says that dreaming is mental awareness while OOBE is astral one. I've had an OOBE only once, long time ago and cannot tell the difference between LD and it, not much data. Third gate of dreaming looks like OOBE, but according to CC, one needs to bring his energy body down and work on it first (the first and second gate). So, no matter what kind of awareness each one is, both seem to be necessary to explore in order to learn the dreaming as CC speaks about

.

Saso · « **Reply #5 on:** 04 June 2013, 15:57:19 »

That's quite possible .
Have you ever had so called "events merging"? Like, you dream an event and it continues in daily world and vice versa? I've had these a couple of times, usually, in a dream a meeting would be announced and it would happened in T1 . It is called various names (precognition etc) but DH were onto something when they said these chains of events do cross between T1 and T2 and according to them, it's quite possible to start something in a daily world and finish it in dreaming. Sergey described his dreaming about some hidden treasure and location was known to him. But in a daily world there was some concrete building or street, I cannot remember need to check this story out, but he started to do a research about the location. It appeared in there used to be some event in the distant past which involved treasure and there was great possibility one was dug in there .
This also could be due to a reality-merging when events "walk" from one to another

As a matter of fact, I did experience ''events merging'' a couple of times.

Usually the things I do or think about in waking life transfer into dreaming where I 'finish' them (i.e. an idea comes to my mind that I can apply in waking reality). I guess you could call that 'creative problem-solving through dreams', but I think that it's actually much more as DH say. I was on a 'soul-search' in Peru earlier this year and that's where the most interesting thing happened regarding that – I was on a 'diet' to support the healing process and in a way that 'diet' transferred into my dreaming: I was thinking about the ' shoulds and shouldn'ts ' (in regard to what 'is allowed while dieting and what's not) like all the time, no matter whether I was 'awake' or 'asleep'.

There is actually another good 'example' on that matter that comes to my mind: quite some time ago I had some kind of 'initiation' in dreaming where I received a 'gift of assistance' (in other words, I got an Ally). Their 'help' is not limited to dreaming but also extends to waking reality.

It can come in handy sometimes...

How do you determine where the desert is located? For me there was no way to locate them! I could go by the reason and use the sun as the orienting point, but it didn't make sense, no energy feeling. Desert dreams appear as a continuation of one bubble, they appear as completely new thing . They seem like totally magical places, very diferent from usual bubbIes, like the Interperetor could not find anything to compare it to, so it constructed a desert . I was unable to use any feeling or intuition regarding their location. But, what I notice, they do have some power different in feeling than other bubbles!

Best answer I can give you in regard to how I determined where the desert is located is – by feeling.

I usually get there from a beach-like terrain, so it could as well be 'an extent' of the beach and not the actual desert (what DH call 'the Desert of Yondo'). I do agree with you, however, that 'desert dreams' seem as a special type of dreams – with me they're usually related to being imprisoned by or running from 'alien-like' creatures (once I was even involved in a prisoner exchange between two groups of such unusual beings) or they 'feel' like a 'foreign country' (like Australia or Africa – I don't know why I get this feeling but it appears persistent through different dreams).

Also, once I have seen that famous fog-wall - a very dark fog which streched from the ground to the infinity above. This I could locate easily on the North, by the sea. It was frightening thing to see . I haven't tried to cross it, it was too scary sight to even approach any closer

This could either be 'the border' of the Second Attention or a piece of previously undiscovered terrain. In my experience the feeling of fright or fear in dreaming (as we perceive it in waking reality) is triggered by what DH call 'the Guardians' – the 'physical' manifestations of our deepest fears that watch over the pieces of our 'lost' luminosity. There is also another possible 'explanation' from DH: ''There is an unusual phenomena on the NW side (of the map) that can only be perceived as 'good' in the moment of (physical) death.'' I guess it could be the 'transition point to Afterlife'... $:-\$ (I had this scribbled down in a notebook, I'll try to find a more detailed description later.)

There is always something at stake. But, IMO we have no choice, really, I see that now clearly, but to use the path of love (don Juan used "the path with the heart" term and he talked about unconditional love). After all, it is usually love that is in stake and what we are defending - we easily use aggression to defend it. I used to be a lot into so called "warrior's couldn't care less" mood, for years and it brought to me only troubles . Learning unconditional love that don Juan taught about seems like a way which will not put us into the position where we need to defend anything, because new chain of events will be started and returned to us accordingly! Stalking on our life in such a way could bring awareness of our nature as pure love. Taking full responsibility is IMO the only cheek to turn, the above quote is actualy defeating dogma for human beings set by a predator

I agree with you – love (and fear, for that matter) can make us do all sorts of crazy things...

What do you mean by ''warrior's couldn't care less'' mood and what kind of problems did that bring you (if it's not too personal to share)? I'm asking because I think I have a similar 'problem' – it's not that 'I couldn't care less' (since I'm somewhat 'empathic' and things that I shouldn't give a damn about usually shake me pretty much), but rather that I look at things happening around me through a different perspective then (most of) other people do and that brings forth a feeling of 'alienation' in some everyday situations.

$:-\$
Stalking on ones actions and taking full responsibility for ones life and (re)actions does 'help' in a way but if you look at things differently (i.e. that we are all 'one') – where does my life end and yours begin...?

Quote from: Saso on 04 June 2013, 15:57:19

To be honest, I haven't tried so hard to differentiate those . Robert Bruce says that dreaming is mental awareness while OOBE is astral one. I've had an OOBE only once, long time ago and cannot tell the difference between LD and it, not much data. Third gate of dreaming looks like OOBE, but according to CC, one needs to bring his energy body down and work on it first (the first and second gate). So, no matter what kind of awareness each one is, both seem to be necessary to explore in order to learn the dreaming as CC speaks about .

Heh, mental awareness, astral awareness - that's exactly what puzzles me!

Dreaming, as CC describes it (especially after reaching and crossing the third gateway of dreaming) is not 'dreaming' anymore! It's a conscious 'projection', exploration of worlds beyond 'normal' human reasoning. As I understand, the same goes for APs and OBEs. So, is it just me or does all that differentiation really make a confusion in regard to the subject...?

Saso · « **Reply #6 on:** 04 June 2013, 16:38:56 »

Quote from: Silhouette on 04 June 2013, 14:19:40
Also, once I have seen that famous fog-wall - a very dark fog which streched from the ground to the infinity above. This I could locate easily on the North, by the sea. It was frightening thing to see . I haven't tried to cross it, it was too scary sight to even approach any closer

... There is also another possible 'explanation' from DH: ''There is an unusual phenomena on the NW side (of the map) that can only be perceived as 'good' in the moment of (physical) death.'' I guess it could be the 'transition point to Afterlife'... $:-\$ (I had this scribbled down in a notebook, I'll try to find a more detailed description later.)

Unfortunately, this is all that I could find on this topic (the quotes are form different DH files):

Quote from: DH, Ravenna

In the northwest corner of the map is a strange phenomenon that you look good only at death. This is a "hole" where the drain western and northern rivers. This will be discussed later.

Quote from: DH, website

That place that you saw in the P-In the corner of the map is indeed a spatial hole. At the time of death all his personal tonalite "ooze" and there remains sketchy skeleton "- delicate luminous trace of the main basic elements, such as two giant buildings and meridianty islovyh areas.

It's not much but it could be the same thing you were describing.

I guess we'll have to explore it ourselves...

Silhouette · « **Reply #7 on:** 07 June 2013, 11:19:42 »

I was on a 'soul-search' in Peru earlier this year

That sounds interesting, was that by any chance an ayahuasca trip

There is actually another good 'example' on that matter that comes to my mind: quite some time ago I had some kind of 'initiation' in dreaming where I received a 'gift of assistance' (in other words, I got an Ally). Their 'help' is not limited to dreaming but also extends to waking reality.

It can come in handy sometimes...

I remember something similar in one of my old dreams, but I do not remember any actual help by this ally, LOL

. I did have couple of "good" dreams with CC and don Juan in them, they were quite interesting: in all of them I was taught by them some lesson. There were 4 of these dreams, from the time I did not practice mapping, just intended to find my hands

. I remember them very well even today, one was about learning how to fall down into another reality, one about death, then one about 3 prong nagual, and the last one was about how to open a "crack" in the sky

. I do not know the actual use of them, at the time, they seemed informative, interesting and powerful by feeling, but later on they didn't continue, so who knows

.

to being imprisoned by or running from 'alien-like' creatures (once I was even involved in a prisoner exchange between two groups of such unusual beings) or they 'feel' like a 'foreign country' (like Australia or Africa – I don't know why I get this feeling but it appears persistent through different dreams).

That's interesting, I also had aliens in desert and was in Australia, too

. That one I placed in foreign country part of the map.

This could either be 'the border' of the Second Attention or a piece of previously undiscovered terrain. In my experience the feeling of fright or fear in dreaming (as we perceive it in waking reality) is triggered by what DH call 'the Guardians' – the 'physical' manifestations of our deepest fears that watch over the pieces of our 'lost' luminosity. There is also another possible 'explanation' from DH: ''There is an unusual phenomena on the NW side (of the map) that can only be perceived as 'good' in the moment of (physical) death.'' I guess it could be the 'transition point to Afterlife'... $:-\$ (I had this scribbled down in a notebook, I'll try to find a more detailed description later.)

I remember that explanation of DH about TP to afterlife

. Who knows... I've never seen that fog again, so maybe when there is enough dreaming memory gathered, and I Intend to go there in full awareness, it may bring different possibility. Visiting these places in Controlled Dreaming might be something completely different, even in perspective and in Seeing these places so as attempts to cross them. Maybe it's up to the new generation of dreamers to go beyond

What do you mean by ''warrior's couldn't care less'' mood and what kind of problems did that bring you (if it's not too personal to share)? I'm asking because I think I have a similar 'problem' – it's not that 'I couldn't care less' (since I'm somewhat 'empathic' and things that I shouldn't give a damn about usually shake me pretty much), but rather that I look at things happening around me through a different perspective then (most of) other people do and that brings forth a feeling of 'alienation' in some everyday situations.

$:-\$

Well, I took the mood (copied it from CC books, actually) of how I imagined the fight against self-importance would be and was quite aggressive in the process, LOL

. So I would search for petty tyrants and practice my patience with them, how much I could hold on till I go nuts

. I worked for some really nasty people and was crazy enough to push them even harder, just to see what will happen, how will I react. That was stupid thing to do, because, I wasn't really learning to let go, but to fight even more with them using various strategies in order to change them, instead of me. I wasn't changing at all, rather my self-importance grew even more! So, I became petty tyrant, even nasty one, too

. These were not pretty times, let me tell you

. I did learn a lot from that practice, don't get me wrong, but from today's perspective, the real dealing with self-importance goes in letting go of anything you keep in you which creates these situations in one's life. Taking full responsibility means exactly that: everything is in me, there is no out there! I am the petty tyrant, a predator.

Actually while stalking this way, one realizes empathy or compassion are just another programs, as well, and one works within himself in order to change what s/he experience as "the wrongs" in the world s/he perceives. There is no idea of "faultiness", too (like who's fault is for something in the world), but taking full responsibility for the shared data that manifests itself as the wrongs and one needs to clean on that, the data, garbage which is installed in us. So, there is no crazy boss at the company where I work, but the data we both share is crazy (i.e. predatory installation, or programming, etc) and if I take fool responsibility and clean this data - we both get free, even the boss!

In order to do that, you need a platform, a source of energy you'll draw a strength from, first to accept yourselves as petty tyrant to others and to yourself, and then to clean. Love is that source, not just any kind, but self-love

. Of course I do not mean what's usually interpreted as self-love, like self-importance (that is also programmed data, which tells if you love yourself than you are an ego maniac), but an abstract affection for your true nature as divine being of total awareness and pure love. IMO, only self-love can be unconditional, love toward others could not, since this world is of duality and we learn how to perceive the world thru the self-love, from within

Stalking on ones actions and taking full responsibility for ones life and (re)actions does 'help' in a way but if you look at things differently (i.e. that we are all 'one') – where does my life end and yours begin...?

Actually, it's one line and it starts from you and ends in you. So, it is you who holds ending and beginning

That's the whole idea in stalking oneself and taking responsibility, IMO

Heh, mental awareness, astral awareness - that's exactly what puzzles me!

Dreaming, as CC describes it (especially after reaching and crossing the third gateway of dreaming) is not 'dreaming' anymore! It's a conscious 'projection', exploration of worlds beyond 'normal' human reasoning. As I understand, the same goes for APs and OBEs. So, is it just me or does all that differentiation really make a confusion in regard to the subject...?

Robert says that OOBE is close to the physical body and dreaming is close to the mind. This might make sense, since in CC dreaming you first develop "mental" dreaming and then you work on OBE (third gate) which sort of completes your double (I'm only speculating

) and then on you explore with that instrument other worlds. I've rad Robert Monroe's books and the stuff he describes in his AP's are just amazing! As crazy as CC's stuff (well, CC's are a bit crazier, lol

), so I don't know, really. I'm interested in both, but it seems one cannot practice both (intend both at the same time), I've tried it's hard. It's easier to focus just on one

Unfortunately, this is all that I could find on this topic (the quotes are form different DH files):
Quote from: DH, Ravenna

In the northwest corner of the map is a strange phenomenon that you look good only at death. This is a "hole" where the drain western and northern rivers. This will be discussed later.

It's not much but it could be the same thing you were describing.

I guess we'll have to explore it ourselves...

Yep, will' just have to wait until death and see

Saso · « **Reply #8 on:** 08 June 2013, 13:01:55 »

That sounds interesting, was that by any chance an ayahuasca trip

That was a part of it.

However, my primary goal was to work on my dreaming. It is amazing what one can do when there is no interferences of all sorts.

I remember something similar in one of my old dreams, but I do not remember any actual help by this ally, LOL . I did have couple of "good" dreams with CC and don Juan in them, they were quite interesting: in all of them I was taught by them some lesson. There were 4 of these dreams, from the time I did not practice mapping, just intended to find my hands . I remember them very well even today, one was about learning how to fall down into another reality, one about death, then one about 3 prong nagual, and the last one was about how to open a "crack" in the sky . I do not know the actual use of them, at the time, they seemed informative, interesting and powerful by feeling, but later on they didn't continue, so who knows .

Heh...

I find this interesting, how a topic of conversation triggers dream recall from a dream with a similar topic... I've had a couple of 'Indian dreams' as well. I agree with you – they did feel powerful; it was always about some kind of learning, or some ancient/Indian ceremonies, rituals etc.

I believe that those lessons we learn on the other side, actually do come in handy; if not otherwise, on the other side...

I mean, you do know, how to ''change realities'' (by falling down) or how to open a crack in the sky (though I don't see how and why that would be of use

). The rest is just a matter of practice (to make it ''perfect'', that is).

What did you mean with the part I underlined?

That's interesting, I also had aliens in desert and was in Australia, too . That one I placed in foreign country part of the map.

Have you ever considered about why the feeling of 'foreign country'?

What does that particular ''country'' mean to you (IRL)? I mean, I've never been to Australia or Africa (at least not the continental Africa...), but they still appear in my dreams from time to time. I guess that could just be my mind's interpretation of what ''the desert'' would look like (created from memories from books, TV and movies, pictures I've seen ets.). Do you ever get that same feeling while in the city? I get it every once and a while, and it's usually related to Russia.

This just occurred to me - all those ''foreign places'' could be ''dreaming related'' - Australia has (or had) world's best dreamers ever (the Aborigines), there are tribes in Africa that have some correlation with dreaming (at least by using Silene capensis aka. African Dream Root) and Russia... Well...

I remember that explanation of DH about TP to afterlife . Who knows... I've never seen that fog again, so maybe when there is enough dreaming memory gathered, and I Intend to go there in full awareness, it may bring different possibility. Visiting these places in Controlled Dreaming might be something completely different, even in perspective and in Seeing these places so as attempts to cross them. Maybe it's up to the new generation of dreamers to go beyond

Something just came to my mind. Maybe it way just 'the fog of war'. I mean, have you ever been to that location again after the 'fog dream'?

Well, I took the mood (copied it from CC books, actually) of how I imagined the fight against self-importance would be and was quite aggressive in the process, LOL . So I would search for petty tyrants and practice my patience with them, how much I could hold on till I go nuts . I worked for some really nasty people and was crazy enough to push them even harder, just to see what will happen, how will I react. That was stupid thing to do, because, I wasn't really learning to let go, but to fight even more with them using various strategies in order to change them, instead of me. I wasn't changing at all, rather my self-importance grew even more! So, I became petty tyrant, even nasty one, too . These were not pretty times, let me tell you . I did learn a lot from that practice, don't get me wrong, but from today's perspective, the real dealing with self-importance goes in letting go of anything you keep in you which creates these situations in one's life. Taking full responsibility means exactly that: everything is in me, there is no out there! I am the petty tyrant, a predator.

That does sound like an extreme approach.

I can imagine that things didn't work out too good for you. $:-\$

Actually while stalking this way, one realizes empathy or compassion are just another programs, as well, and one works within himself in order to change what s/he experience as "the wrongs" in the world s/he perceives. There is no idea of "faultiness", too (like who's fault is for something in the world), but taking full responsibility for the shared data that manifests itself as the wrongs and one needs to clean on that, the data, garbage which is installed in us. So, there is no crazy boss at the company where I work, but the data we both share is crazy (i.e. predatory installation, or programming, etc) and if I take fool responsibility and clean this data - we both get free, even the boss!

Don't you think that trying to 'change' the things one believes to be ''the wrong'' (or anything else in terms of one's beliefs, for that matter) is actually just another futile battle?

I find it much easier if I manage to accept things ''as they are'' instead of trying to change them. When I do so (try to change anything so it would fit into ''the mold'' of my perception), I actually only try to deny what is, in order to make it acceptable by my belief system. Which would mean that I'm ''feeding my self-importance'' – in sense that I'm right and that (whatever it is) is wrong. $:-\$

In order to do that, you need a platform, a source of energy you'll draw a strength from, first to accept yourselves as petty tyrant to others and to yourself, and then to clean. Love is that source, not just any kind, but self-love . Of course I do not mean what's usually interpreted as self-love, like self-importance (that is also programmed data, which tells if you love yourself than you are an ego maniac), but an abstract affection for your true nature as divine being of total awareness and pure love. IMO, only self-love can be unconditional, love toward others could not, since this world is of duality and we learn how to perceive the world thru the self-love, from within

I believe that love towards others can (and should) be unconditional, as well. I just think that it has to be free of attachments that we usually project to each other. It's actually quite similar to what you've said about self-acceptance (taking full responsibility) and to what I've written earlier – we always try to change others so they would fit into our concept of reality. And since we can't change them to fit our perception, ideals etc., there is always something ''wrong'' with them.

Actually, it's one line and it starts from you and ends in you. So, it is you who holds ending and beginning That's the whole idea in stalking oneself and taking responsibility, IMO

Hm, that's an interesting point of view. Kind of 'boosts the ego', doesn't it...?

Robert says that OOBE is close to the physical body and dreaming is close to the mind. This might make sense, since in CC dreaming you first develop "mental" dreaming and then you work on OBE (third gate) which sort of completes your double (I'm only speculating ) and then on you explore with that instrument other worlds. I've rad Robert Monroe's books and the stuff he describes in his AP's are just amazing! As crazy as CC's stuff (well, CC's are a bit crazier, lol ), so I don't know, really. I'm interested in both, but it seems one cannot practice both (intend both at the same time), I've tried it's hard. It's easier to focus just on one

IMO, they (CC and Robert Monroe) are both describing the same phenomena (traveling of consciousness), it's just that they use different interpretation models. I guess you could say that you first develop ''mental'' dreaming (though ''mental'', as I understand, is related to the mind and it makes me wonder, how much does dreaming actually have to do with the mind).

OK, let's leave out that (ordinary) dreams are supposed to be created from the data, stored in our minds (beliefs, experience, fears, etc.). But if you look at WILD, for example – isn't that exactly what (O)OBEs are all about? That is, in both cases you make the transition from waking reality into dream world/astral plane/whatever-the-term. I do agree with you, though, that it (both) requires quite some work to achieve...

Yep, will' just have to wait until death and see

Why wait so long?

We have the opportunity to go there every time we dream and besides – how would you share what you saw there if you were dead?

Silhouette · « **Reply #9 on:** 12 June 2013, 17:01:58 »

Heh...

I find this interesting, how a topic of conversation triggers dream recall from a dream with a similar topic... I've had a couple of 'Indian dreams' as well. I agree with you – they did feel powerful; it was always about some kind of learning, or some ancient/Indian ceremonies, rituals etc.

I believe that those lessons we learn on the other side, actually do come in handy; if not otherwise, on the other side...

I mean, you do know, how to ''change realities'' (by falling down) or how to open a crack in the sky (though I don't see how and why that would be of use

). The rest is just a matter of practice (to make it ''perfect'', that is).

Yes, if only I could repeat that exercise in the dream

. I did "fall down" a few times in later dreams, but "change of reality" never happened, lol

. The problem was, I started to practice whatever I was told to do in those dreams, (not just dJ and CC, but other school-dream kinds), that is, how I interpreted of what should I do and it rarely works. Interpreting is the main problem, one is never sure, unless he tries and sees. But, I do remember one lesson I had in a dream about how to stop inner dialogue at once and to reach inner silence (at least for a short while) and it works in T1 as well! You take sharp, quick inhale with your mouth and open your mouth and your eyes as widely as possible. Then, you hold this position for a short time, two seconds let's say, and then exhale normally, releasing all of the tension from the face, relaxing it completely while closing your eyes. This works like a charm: it will shut any dialogue you have immediately (especially, when you are upset) and you reach inner silence from which you can start anything you want, any action or thoughts, whatever to get out of upsettings, anger. This dream was very long and I "had to" repeat this exercise in it as long as possible, it seemed like all night

. Very persuasive, you cannot forget such a dream

What did you mean with the part I underlined?

"Castaneda" was teaching me what the three prong nagual means and the rules of it. Unfortunately, not much of it I remembered, the actual rule I mean, but it was a long before Armando Torress's book got out. Only, he remembered it better, hahhahaha :

Have you ever considered about why the feeling of 'foreign country'?

What does that particular ''country'' mean to you (IRL)? I mean, I've never been to Australia or Africa (at least not the continental Africa...), but they still appear in my dreams from time to time. I guess that could just be my mind's interpretation of what ''the desert'' would look like (created from memories from books, TV and movies, pictures I've seen ets.). Do you ever get that same feeling while in the city? I get it every once and a while, and it's usually related to Russia.

This just occurred to me - all those ''foreign places'' could be ''dreaming related'' - Australia has (or had) world's best dreamers ever (the Aborigines), there are tribes in Africa that have some correlation with dreaming (at least by using Silene capensis aka. African Dream Root) and Russia... Well...

I did spend some time in Australia, actually, 20 years ago

. In fact, I practiced OBE over there, using "the elevator method" by Ž.Slavinski and it worked! So, I practiced it for three months while having the dream journal and was quite into it at the time. I have many dreams related to Australia nowadays, it seemed logical to open the map just for Australia

. But, spheres do intersect of course from this area to there! So, what is foreign anyway

Australia is an excellent ground for dreaming! It seemed much more perceptive surrounding for it; when I returned here, I was unable to continue my OBE practice, after many months of attempts. The dreaming will simply went off! Years later, I had to built new Intent after CC books arrived into my attention. It still feels that Aussie mood was much better than one in here, thou.

Something just came to my mind. Maybe it way just 'the fog of war'. I mean, have you ever been to that location again after the 'fog dream'?

Yes, but there was no fog

Don't you think that trying to 'change' the things one believes to be ''the wrong'' (or anything else in terms of one's beliefs, for that matter) is actually just another futile battle?

I find it much easier if I manage to accept things ''as they are'' instead of trying to change them. When I do so (try to change anything so it would fit into ''the mold'' of my perception), I actually only try to deny what is, in order to make it acceptable by my belief system. Which would mean that I'm ''feeding my self-importance'' – in sense that I'm right and that (whatever it is) is wrong. $:-\$

Indeed, that's what I say, too

. Acceptance is the key, IMO. But, it is hard to accept when we fight against the same acceptance, make resistance to it. It is programming that resists, so taking responsibility is recognizing there are parts of us which work against us and reveals what we need to get rid of, to clean. After we clean the data, there in nothing left there which will resist to other ideas, concepts, "the wrongs" - acceptance is in it's full shine

I believe that love towards others can (and should) be unconditional, as well. I just think that it has to be free of attachments that we usually project to each other. It's actually quite similar to what you've said about self-acceptance (taking full responsibility) and to what I've written earlier – we always try to change others so they would fit into our concept of reality. And since we can't change them to fit our perception, ideals etc., there is always something ''wrong'' with them.

IMO, duality means to believe that we are separated from the Source. In that condition, we believe others are separated from us and we treat them in this manner. In order to love others unconditionally, we need to recognize the Source within us and to realize the same Source in others. When we are able to do this, then we will start to See others as Love. This Seeing is sourced from within, it is an internal knowledge. So, loving others unconditionally, IMO, comes from the self-love, like it is the "lens" through-which PUL is emanating "outwards", toward others and we'll be able to feel unconditional love for them (us, actually) as much as it is possible in this reality, without any judgments. Seeing behind judgments is difficult part and requires cleaning of what those judgments are consists of in us.

IMO, they (CC and Robert Monroe) are both describing the same phenomena (traveling of consciousness), it's just that they use different interpretation models. I guess you could say that you first develop ''mental'' dreaming (though ''mental'', as I understand, is related to the mind and it makes me wonder, how much does dreaming actually have to do with the mind).

OK, let's leave out that (ordinary) dreams are supposed to be created from the data, stored in our minds (beliefs, experience, fears, etc.). But if you look at WILD, for example – isn't that exactly what (O)OBEs are all about? That is, in both cases you make the transition from waking reality into dream world/astral plane/whatever-the-term. I do agree with you, though, that it (both) requires quite some work to achieve...

The problem with the mind is our interpretation of it, some say it is thinking (westerns) and others it is divine reality (buddhism), it's confusing

. After all, even R. Bruce's interpretations are data based, IMO, regardless to his practice and discoveries and that is why to some it means one thing (whatever data's, ideas s/he has of it) and to others other thing. I decided to lose all of that and to explore dreaming or OBE as a equal practice which deals with energy body

. IMO, all dreaming is done by energy body, even mumbo-jumbo ones

. So, the key is to make it "stronger", our connection with it, and to use it in Dreaming practice.

Why wait so long?

We have the opportunity to go there every time we dream and besides – how would you share what you saw there if you were dead?

indeed, yes! It seems those areas are protected to the extreme, very difficult to cross, but if we are crazy enough...

Do you remember our earlier talk about the system and agents, who chase dreamers, hunt them down in order to stop them of exploring? I ran into this recently, and if they can do this, we are screwed

http://chibis.overstream.net/swf/player/oplx?oid=a6iyeelzajn4&noplay=1

polona · « **Reply #10 on:** 15 June 2013, 17:20:40 »

hey to both of you

i was reading your posts and just a little while ago, i spoke with sašo. he was excited about a little discovery i have came to, so i decided to write it here.

well, it seemed interesting to me, when one of you noticed, that aborigins where special about dreams. so, i met a friend of mine, who is australian, and i asked her if she knows about any interesting book, touching the indigenous people in a way that would be good to percieve culture itself. and really fast she answered that maybe the book called The Songlines of Bruce Chatwin would give a place for such a wish... since you were both discovering the mountains and the passage through them in dreams, it seems i catched a little clever idea of how you could go through

maybe with a song!!

this is a little notice about the book, which i found in amazon, where you can buy it...well, hopefully there is one in library... anyway..
"..into the desolate land of Outback Australia to learn the meaning of the Aborginals' ancient "Dreaming-tracks." ..."

silhouette, i am glad to read about your discoveries, it's good that you share it here with us

i will write some comment or my own experiences, but i guess it happens exactly when it has to happen. and for now, i feel it's enough to give you a little notice about the book

have a good life and therefore dreams!!!

polona · « **Reply #11 on:** 16 June 2013, 11:37:48 »

silhouette, i do wonder about your experiences with third attention. i would be glad if you could say something more about it

i did came to it in dreams and yes, all is changed since then...let's say, that border as we are upon to see between dreams and reality, or let's say all the duality that is naturally inside us, is now something that i see as one with eachother...somehow, all seems much more natural in a way, i guess this experience with the third attention, brought me the simplicity, clearance and it crashed all the mind work trying to find a solution.
i didn't knew what to do with an information that i got in dreams, i was actually holding a button in my hand, it grew out of it, and i gathered all the lucid dreamers i could, for letting them hear the recording of what the third attention is.. i am maybe a bit lazy to just read about what other explorers said about third attention, to be honest i was never about to do dreaming in a way of crossing first, second and then third attention...i guess i am like some neuron transferring some data that i am not knowing about why it goes through me

but yes, it seems that is very easy for me, since i am a child...dreaming for me is something totally natural, but let's say, i was actually putting lots of effort to stabilize the ground to go deeper and deeper. as we all had to, so that if i want some OBE today, i just need to wish it

))

well, i hope to read anything from you..or anybody else also

)

Silhouette · « **Reply #12 on:** 17 June 2013, 11:16:25 »

Hi Polona

Nice to meet you

. Thank you for that book recommendation, I'll check it out!

I've never been to the third attention, that is, maybe I have, but I don't really know what that is, how to "recognize" it

. I did explore afterlife regions, so called Focus 23, 25 and some 27. These designations were set by Robert Monroe, while traveling with his astral body. I did not explore these Focuses by dreaming or OBE, but using so called "mental awareness", where in deep mediation you use guides to lead you toward spirits and help them to cross to the F27, the so called Gate. But, IMO, this is not third attention

Saso · « **Reply #13 on:** 17 June 2013, 12:38:30 »

Yes, if only I could repeat that exercise in the dream . I did "fall down" a few times in later dreams, but "change of reality" never happened, lol . The problem was, I started to practice whatever I was told to do in those dreams, (not just dJ and CC, but other school-dream kinds), that is, how I interpreted of what should I do and it rarely works. Interpreting is the main problem, one is never sure, unless he tries and sees. But, I do remember one lesson I had in a dream about how to stop inner dialogue at once and to reach inner silence (at least for a short while) and it works in T1 as well! You take sharp, quick inhale with your mouth and open your mouth and your eyes as widely as possible. Then, you hold this position for a short time, two seconds let's say, and then exhale normally, releasing all of the tension from the face, relaxing it completely while closing your eyes. This works like a charm: it will shut any dialogue you have immediately (especially, when you are upset) and you reach inner silence from which you can start anything you want, any action or thoughts, whatever to get out of upsettings, anger. This dream was very long and I "had to" repeat this exercise in it as long as possible, it seemed like all night . Very persuasive, you cannot forget such a dream

This is an excellent exercise, thanks for sharing!

I've been trying it yesterday and it struck me – it's similar to 'reaction' to shock or fear.

Nonetheless – it stops ID for a brief moment. It makes me wonder if it has any significant effects over time (i.e. does it help to shut down the internal chatter for a longer period of time)...

Have you been practicing it IRL as well?

"Castaneda" was teaching me what the three prong nagual means and the rules of it. Unfortunately, not much of it I remembered, the actual rule I mean, but it was a long before Armando Torress's book got out. Only, he remembered it better, hahhahaha :

Thanks for the refference!

I found the book (it is ''Encounters With The Nagual'' from 2004, right?) and I'll check it out as soon as I finish ''The Tibetan Yogas Of Dream and Sleep''.

I did spend some time in Australia, actually, 20 years ago . In fact, I practiced OBE over there, using "the elevator method" by Ž.Slavinski and it worked! So, I practiced it for three months while having the dream journal and was quite into it at the time. I have many dreams related to Australia nowadays, it seemed logical to open the map just for Australia . But, spheres do intersect of course from this area to there! So, what is foreign anyway

Australia is an excellent ground for dreaming! It seemed much more perceptive surrounding for it; when I returned here, I was unable to continue my OBE practice, after many months of attempts. The dreaming will simply went off! Years later, I had to built new Intent after CC books arrived into my attention. It still feels that Aussie mood was much better than one in here, thou.

I'm sure that Australia has excellent dreaming energy.

Then, there is 'the isolation factor' – you probably went there with a specific purpose (i.e. practicing dreaming, OBE, etc.), so there was less disturbances, which also brings better results. But I find it interesting that your dreaming stopped when you returned.

I mean, you were probably still knee deep into it, when you came back. Or was it due to everyday choirs that awaited you on your return? Hmm, it's kind of similar to what I experienced when I returned from Peru... Good old everyday distractions...

Indeed, that's what I say, too . Acceptance is the key, IMO. But, it is hard to accept when we fight against the same acceptance, make resistance to it. It is programming that resists, so taking responsibility is recognizing there are parts of us which work against us and reveals what we need to get rid of, to clean. After we clean the data, there in nothing left there which will resist to other ideas, concepts, "the wrongs" - acceptance is in it's full shine

What “techniques” do you use for this internal cleaning? Meditation? Recapitulation?

IMO, duality means to believe that we are separated from the Source. In that condition, we believe others are separated from us and we treat them in this manner. In order to love others unconditionally, we need to recognize the Source within us and to realize the same Source in others. When we are able to do this, then we will start to See others as Love. This Seeing is sourced from within, it is an internal knowledge. So, loving others unconditionally, IMO, comes from the self-love, like it is the "lens" through-which PUL is emanating "outwards", toward others and we'll be able to feel unconditional love for them (us, actually) as much as it is possible in this reality, without any judgments. Seeing behind judgments is difficult part and requires cleaning of what those judgments are consists of in us.

Well said. Only one word comes to my mind: Namaste.

The problem with the mind is our interpretation of it, some say it is thinking (westerns) and others it is divine reality (buddhism), it's confusing . After all, even R. Bruce's interpretations are data based, IMO, regardless to his practice and discoveries and that is why to some it means one thing (whatever data's, ideas s/he has of it) and to others other thing. I decided to lose all of that and to explore dreaming or OBE as a equal practice which deals with energy body . IMO, all dreaming is done by energy body, even mumbo-jumbo ones . So, the key is to make it "stronger", our connection with it, and to use it in Dreaming practice.

I guess any and all interpretations are data based... $:-\$ It's just what they are – interpretations. Based on our personal experience, individual descriptions of the world etc. What I find interesting is that people, when describing their experience, use different interpretations/descriptions and are often not willing to see beyond the descriptions – they’re obviously describing very similar if not the same experience, but are still so deeply involved into their own mind frame that they’re willing to fight the other person even though they’re actually describing the same thing…

I have to admit that I, too, abandoned the differentiations between LD and (O)OBE a long time ago. I came to a conclusion that they’re both just different description models for the same phenomena and that by researching both it actually brings more confusion than understanding…

indeed, yes! It seems those areas are protected to the extreme, very difficult to cross, but if we are crazy enough...

What do you think – who’s protecting them? Who (or what) are those agents in dreaming? I mean, when you see monsters in dreams, they’re usually personifications of the dreamers’ fears. And when fought off (or at least faced with), one receives a gift in form of additional dreaming energy. But what about the agents?

I’ve had quite some (lucid/conscious) dreams where I was being chased by them. There is always this unpleasant feeling present that things won’t end well if they catch me…